MR. GREGORY: We're going to turn now to House Intelligence Chairman Mike Rogers, Republican from Michigan. Rogers was elected to Congress back in 2000. Since the 9/11 attacks, he's had a major role in forming key legislation involving the intelligence community, like the Patriot Act, as well as developing counterterrorism strategy in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He was a special agent for the FBI, also served in the Army. And he took over the gavel as the chairman of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence at the beginning of this year. The committee has operational and budgetary oversight over the country's intelligence agencies. His appearance this morning comes on--just as news is breaking this week of covert CIA operations on the ground in Libya.
Chairman Rogers, welcome to MEET THE PRESS.
REP. MIKE ROGERS (R-MI): David, thanks for having me.
MR. GREGORY: Good to have you here. Let's pick up on Libya here and specifically about the CIA's role. What are they doing on the ground? And is this part of the strategy to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Libyan rebels?
REP. ROGERS: Well, first of all, I can't comment on any intelligence operations anywhere in the world. They're classified for, for a reason. But let me back up. The CIA was developed and has grown into a pretty robust organization that's designed to go places, even where there are dangerous places, to collect information for policymakers like the United States Congress, like the president, like the military, so that they can make real-time, up-to-date decisions based on what we know on the facts on the ground, so.
MR. GREGORY: But here the major facts are what are the, the rebels doing, what are they, and what do they need? You've said it's not a good idea to supply arms for the rebels. But without it, without the air cover, can they topple Gadhafi?
REP. ROGERS: Well, I supported the no-fly zone early on, as a matter of fact, and support the continuation of the no-fly zone with the ability to strike targets on the ground, armored columns, other things. But what we need to know is who they are. We know what they're against, the rebels.
MR. GREGORY: Hm.
REP. ROGERS: We know that they're against Moammar Gadhafi remaining in power. But we don't know what they're for.
MR. GREGORY: Is there a terrorist element among them?
REP. ROGERS: Well, in most Middle East countries there are elements of al-Qaeda. Now, that doesn't mean they're a part of the government, it doesn't mean they're the majority, it doesn't mean that they're having major influences in the, in the country that--of which they reside. But yes, it's a concern. We know that they're there. They, in the past--the Libyan al-Qaeda element, or al-Qaeda in the Maghreb--provided foreign fighters in Iraq to target U.S. citizens. But that didn't mean that was a part of the Libyan government. It's very tribal, 140 tribes, 30 are which politically active. We just need to know a lot more before we give them advanced weapon systems.
MR. GREGORY: Would you like to see Arab special forces units in a lead role, rather than the CIA on the ground?
REP. ROGERS: Well, I mean, special forces and, and intelligence collection I think are two very, very different things. The special forces on the ground would be designed to, to go and hit targets and, and cause some chaos, if you will, for the enemy. If the Arab League is putting those types of forces on the ground, you know, good on them. The rebels could certainly use that help and support from the Arab League. And I think what you're seeing now amongst the rebels is a little bit organization. One of the good things I think has happened is we've found the, the thousand soldiers or so that have defected. They're getting organized, they're now interfacing with the rebels, getting them more tactically oriented. The pressure on the Gadhafi regime is intense. You know, the--Moussa Koussa, his foreign minister, former head of intelligence, has defected. They're treating him well. He is providing, I think, valuable information to the British and the United States and to the rebels at this point, just by his fact that he is cooperating, being treated well. The pressure on the regime--and more defections, I do believe, will follow--is adding a lot of pressure.
MR. GREGORY: Right. But you heard, you heard Senator Durbin talk, talk about pressure on the regime. The Wall Street editorial this week argued for a more robust, unified voice from the Republicans, saying this: "Republicans ought to prod Mr. Obama," the Journal wrote, "to push for a faster resolution that ends with toppling of Gadhafi and his sons from power. Any result short of that guarantees a divided Libya that may well require international peacekeepers to separate the warring factions. If there is any leader whose terrorist nature the American people understand, it is Gadhafi's." Should that be the view of the Republican Party, to topple him? Is that realistic?
REP. ROGERS: Well, I, I do think Gadhafi remaining in power is not an option, it's not the--an option. But this is--shouldn't be a Republican issue, a Democrat issue, it shouldn't be an Obama issue vs. a John Boehner issue.
MR. GREGORY: Mm-hmm.
REP. ROGERS: This is an American issue.
MR. GREGORY: But how do you get him out? How do you get him out?
REP. ROGERS: Well, continued sustained efforts here. The rebels are getting better organized. We're putting lots of pressure for defections. And people in the regime have to make choices. They're going to have to decide, do they want to be prosecuted when this is all over for war crimes, or do they want to defect early on and be part of the solution for the future of Libya? And believe me, that's, that's an intense amount of pressure. He's running out of money. We--the United States and Europe has seized some $60 billion-plus worth of assets of Libya that will be turned back over to a Libya to rebuild itself. All the components here and a smart way of going forward so that we don't get embroiled in, in owning the problem of the cleanup, if you will.
MR. GREGORY: Mm-hmm.
REP. ROGERS: And we don't arm people that we don't know who they are and if they're going to use those weapons against civilians or maybe us in the future. And so you have this growing in the region fight for liberty so that these governments are less hostile to the United States. There are so many reasons for us to be here and show leadership. And I argue Republicans and Democrats ought to stand together with the president to get--to make sure that this thing ends well for the United States and the people of Libya.
MR. GREGORY: But are we in a conflict that it has at its core a vital U.S. interest? I posed that question to the secretary of Defense on this program last week, this is what he said.
(Videotape, last Sunday)
MR. GREGORY: Is Libya in our vital interest as a country?
SEC'Y ROBERT GATES: No, I don't think it's a vital interest for the United States. But we clearly have interests there. And it's a part of the region which is a vital interest for the United States.
(End videotape)
MR. GREGORY: And part of that interest, as the president outlined it in a speech that a lot of people thought was about Libya but about something of an Obama doctrine, was humanitarian. And yet you read the papers this morning, about 800 civilians killed in the Cote d'Ivoire. I mean, how do we form a policy around when we intervene and when we don't if this is not a, a, a war that's in our interest?
REP. ROGERS: Well, I argue it is in our interests, and we ought to stand with the president on making this a, a positive outcome for the United States, again, the people of Libya. Here's--the humanitarian component of it was real and it was something we should have done, stopping the slaughter of tens of thousands of people that we knew was going to happen. But here's somebody who is a state sponsor of terrorism; the bombing of the German discotheque killed American soldiers, planned thought Gadhafi's regime, the Pan Am bombing. This is somebody who still has a chemical weapon stockpile and he has other weapon systems that keeps me up at night thinking about if these things were to, to happen to fall into the wrong hands.
MR. GREGORY: Is Libya a terrorist threat?
REP. ROGERS: Listen, I think if you have a stalemate with Moammar Gadhafi still in power, when you have this split country where he still possesses stockpiles of some pretty awful stuff, I think you have to worry that he is a terrorist threat.
MR. GREGORY: That's significant...
REP. ROGERS: I believe...
MR. GREGORY: ...that this is what the endgame is about for the U.S. is preventing a terror strike by a, by a cornered Gadhafi.
REP. ROGERS: Well, it's a whole host of things. I think that clearly has to be one of them. I mean, we know he has it. He used chemical weapons in his fight against Chad in 1987, that's a fact.
MR. GREGORY: Mm-hmm.
REP. ROGERS: We have seen--I've been in Libya, I have seen his chemical stockpile. We know it's there, it exists. He has other weapon systems that concern us. But it can't be just that, it has to be all of the other factors.
MR. GREGORY: Just a couple more points in our remaining time. I want to ask you about what I asked Senator Durbin about...
REP. ROGERS: Yeah.
MR. GREGORY: ...these protests that we're seeing throughout Afghanistan because of the Quran burning here in the United States; a publicity stunt for sure, but also an act of extremism. It has real consequences.
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REP. ROGERS: Absolutely has consequences. And we've asked Americans in every tough conflict we've had in the history of this country to be thoughtful and mindful of each citizen's responsibility to make sure that you're doing your part for our soldiers to come home safely with an accomplished mission. When you do something like this, clearly the First Amendment has--protects that individual from doing that. But when you jeopardize our soldiers and the folks who are--and our civilians who are trying to put Afghanistan back together so we can come home, I would hope that you would stop with that bit of extremism and pull yourself back and look at the bigger, broader, more important picture as a unified and successful United States overseas.
MR. GREGORY: Let me ask you about Iraq because the politics there, the sectarian division is started to tear at the seams a little bit. Of course, we have 47,000 troops there, they're due home by the end of the year. The Washington Post's editorial just this morning poses a pretty provocative question, which is "Iraq's ticking clock: What will happen when the last U.S. troops depart?" If we leave, does Iran become the dominant player in Iraq? And what does that mean for the U.S.?
REP. ROGERS: I don't think it becomes the dominant player in Iraq. It certainly has the potential and they have been a very bad actor in the entire region--which I think is why you saw many Arab countries, both overtly and quietly, support the United States from keeping check on Iran's ambitions in the region. That's not going to go away anytime soon. Their proxy state, Syria, clearly is acting on Iran's behalf. Their activities in Bahrain, very concerning of what they're doing. We're going to have to watch it in Iraq and around the rest of that region. Again, why Libya's important? Imagine now a change where you have Libyans, free democracy of some sort, at least of their choosing, that is less hostile to the United States and more inclusive of other Arab League partners. That's a positive outcome for the United States. When liberty is on the march, we ought to be with it in ways that we can, and responsibly, but we ought to be with it.
MR. GREGORY: Just 20 seconds. You're a former FBI agent. What's the key quality the next FBI director should have?
REP. ROGERS: They need to understand the agent culture. The next 10 years of the FBI are critical. Director Mueller has pulled, pulled the FBI along with some serious changes. Understand the agent culture, the core value of being an investigator first, and applying that to their new mission of counterterrorism and analysts.
MR. GREGORY: Counter--yeah, and counterterrorism.
REP. ROGERS: Yes.
MR. GREGORY: Really, that experience is important.
REP. ROGERS: Yes.
MR. GREGORY: All right, Chairman, thank you very much.
REP. ROGERS: Thanks, David, for having me here.
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MR. GREGORY: We appreciate you being here.
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