John McCain Meet The Press 04/24/11:Libya has ‘earmarks’ of a stalemate TEXT VIDEO

MR. GREGORY: Good morning, and happy Easter. We begin this morning with the continued fighting in Libya. Reports of heavy bombardment by Gadhafi forces in the coastal city of Misrata overnight. This coming a day after rebels claimed a victory there after government forces literally and initially retreated. The situation being described this morning as very dangerous. Senator John McCain visited the rebel stronghold city of Benghazi on Friday, and he is with us live this morning from Cairo. Senator, welcome. Describe the fight, the situation on the ground as you experienced it firsthand.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN (R-AZ): Well, in Benghazi things are quiet and calm, and they have a transitional national council that is basically governing the area under their control. In Misrata it, it's, it is quite bloody, David. When I was there, a ship had just arrived from Misrata filled with refugees and the wounded. And I went to the hospital there in Misrata and I saw a lot of young men who were dead and dying and gravely wounded. This is a, this is a pretty bloody situation, and it has the earmarks of being a stalemate. Now, we hope that Gadhafi will crumble from within, but hope is not a strategy. And it's pretty obvious to me that we need -- even though I was glad to see the Predator now in the fight -- it's pretty obvious to me that the United States has got to play a greater role in the airpower side. Our NATO allies neither have the assets nor, frankly, the will. There's only six countries of the 28 in NATO that are actively engaged in, in this situation.

MR. GREGORY: So if you talk about Predators being used, supplies for the rebels, if it comes to it, Senator, would you like to see this president OK ground troops going in, if that's what it takes to break the stalemate?

SEN. McCAIN: No, I would not, David. I think it would be totally counterproductive. I believe that with sufficient and efficient, sufficient and efficient use of airpower, we can bring Gadhafi to his knees. It's ideal terrain and situation for doing so. Have no doubt, though, that he and his forces are adapting to this situation by hiding in houses and doing various things that prevent the airpower from being so effective. But I'll tell you, when you're flying around at 25,000 feet, it's pretty hide -- it's pretty easy to hide from them. But we need to recognize the government as a legitimate voice of the Libyan people so they can have access to the funds that we have frozen of Gadhafi's. We need to help them with communications, we need to help them with humanitarian assistance. We need to -- my view, would be very helpful if we took out Gadhafi's television because when the Libyan people see Gadhafi on television it scares them. This guy is, you know, in the -- by the courthouse in Benghazi, there are pictures of the 1,200 people that he had massacred in one day in a prison. And so we need to, we need to be more helpful, but troops on the ground is out of the question.

MR. GREGORY: You, you have been a forceful advocate of the things that you've been talking about with regard to the mission. There's not a unanimous view, however, in the Republican Party, and we are in a political season already. And Mitt Romney, with whom you've disagreed about war policy in the past, he came out this week in the National Review and said the

following about the president's strategy: "It is apparent that our military is engaged in much more than enforcing a no-fly zone. What we are watching in real time is another example of mission creep and mission muddle." Do you worry about this muddled mission and how it ends?

SEN. McCAIN: I worry about a mission that the president says that the policy is a removal of Gadhafi, but says that it would be a mistake to use force to see that that happen. And what the president's quandary is that he relies on NATO resolutions and Security Council resolutions, and the best he could get is a humanitarian resolution when the fact is that we need to take Gadhafi out. This guy is a person who has lost all legitimacy just, by the way, as Assad in Syria. Go ahead.

MR. GREGORY: But isn't it -- but you say take Gadhafi out. How do you just say that if you're not willing to go all the way with ground troops to, to do that?

SEN. McCAIN: Yeah.

MR. GREGORY: Can you do that with airpower alone?

SEN. McCAIN: I think you can do it with airpower and sufficiently trained and equipped liberation forces. Look, these people hate Gadhafi. That's why I think there's still hope and a chance he may crumble from within. But the longer we delay, the more likely it is there's a stalemate. And if you're worried about al-Qaeda entering into this fight, nothing would bring al- Qaeda in more rapidly and more dangerously than a stalemate.

MR. GREGORY: Can I get you on the record on, on two other matters, Senator, on Iraq?

SEN. McCAIN: Sure.

MR. GREGORY: Admiral Mullen said it's possible that U.S. troops could stay beyond December, if that's what the Iraqi government wants. Do you think that that will be necessary? Do you think that will happen?

SEN. McCAIN: I think it's necessary that we provide them with things like training and air force-- they have to be able to defend their own airspace -- the technical and logistic, particularly intelligence capabilities that we have to offer. I think it's very, very important that we not leave Iraq completely. And I have very little confidence that the State Department can do the job all by itself.

MR. GREGORY: How long do you see some substantial troop presence in Iraq?

SEN. McCAIN: I think it could go on for a period of time. But the key is that we not inflict anymore casualties, that Americans who are stationed there operate in an environment of security. I think we could achieve that. As you know, we have troops stationed all over the world. The American people aren't badly -- deeply concerned about that. They are concerned when Americans continue to suffer casualties.

TEXT and VIDEO CREDIT: Meet The Press

John McCain on CNN State of the Union 4/24/11 VIDEO TEXT

Sen. John McCain joins Candy Crowley live from Cairo to give his first hand assessment of Gadhafi's future and the fighting on the ground in Libya, where he met with rebel leaders in Benghazi on Friday.

Aired April 24, 2011 - 09:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CROWLEY: Joining me now from Cairo, Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona, fresh back from Benghazi, Libya.

Senator, one of the things you called for was for the U.S. to recognize the transitional government that is now headquartered in Benghazi, a rebel-held city. How certain can you be that that transitional government actually is in sync with some of the fighters in Misrata or some of the fighters in the mountains? Is it representative of all of those who are fighting to free Libya from Gadhafi?

MCCAIN: I believe they are, Candy. One of the members, the chairman, was a former justice minister who stood up to Gadhafi, and they have great respect for him. Another, the finance minister, is an economics professor from the University of Washington. We also another fellow that's in the council was in Gadhafi's prison for 31 years. I think they represent -- there's a number of women, civil society activists and others, who are in this council, and I believe that they represent the legitimate aspirations of the Libyan people.

CROWLEY: And are you certain that there is no element of Al Qaida or other terrorist groups that have been able to jump into this void of leadership?

MCCAIN: Candy, I think that it's possible that that could happen. But right now these people are united in their hatred of Gadhafi. They're united, the same reason the people in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria and other countries are, that they want freedom. It wasn't Al Qaida that sparked this uprising. It was the desire for freedom and democracy.

Now, if you have a stalemate, I think it's very possible that Al Qaida could come in and take advantage of a stalemated situation. But right now, it's not Al Qaida that motivated this and it is not Al Qaida that's running it.

CROWLEY: If Moammar Gadhafi is so broadly hated across Libya, why does his army still fight for him and why have we seen so few fractures in his inner circle?

MCCAIN: As you know, we've seen a few fractures, obviously, that I don't have to recount for you. But he is paying mercenaries very large amounts of money. His sons have a few loyal battalions, as you know, that are -- and they have the equipment advantage. The rebels, or the liberation forces, as I like to call them, are badly outgunned in armor, in equipment, in training. I visited the army base outside of Benghazi also on Friday, and they have a long, long way to go as far as training and equipment is concerned. So they're badly outgunned.

I believe with the accurate -- with the appropriate use of air power, which is not the case now -- even though I'm glad the Predator is now in the fight -- that we could -- and adequate training and equipping of the liberation forces -- that they can bring this to a successful conclusion. But it is going to take I think a number of steps, including the recognition of this council, so it would free up money. They need money very badly, and some communications equipment. Some other things that I think would be very decisive.

But I really fear a stalemate. I hope that Gadhafi goes. I hope that there's that kind of overthrow from within, but hope is not a strategy.

CROWLEY: You said earlier this week that the U.S. could help arm the Libyan rebels without direct U.S. involvement. How would that work?

MCCAIN: I think it works the same way that it did in Afghanistan when the Russians were occupying Afghanistan. There are certain other countries that can be of assistance that are already stepping forward, including some of the Gulf states. But it can be achieved, and it isn't a huge amount of equipment.

But there's no doubt that the liberation forces are badly outgunned, and that's a big hindrance, and that's why you're seeing this bloodletting in Misrata.

Could I just mention to you, I saw some wounded that had come in on a ship from Misrata in a hospital in Benghazi yesterday. And I'm telling you, it is very moving to see these young men, full of bullet holes, wounded, some of them dying, and us not doing what we can without risk to Americans on the ground -- and I'm opposed to that -- that we could help them and prevent this kind of bloodletting that's going on.

CROWLEY: One of your colleagues, Senator Lindsey Graham, I spoke with earlier on this show. One of the things he said was, "I think the focus should now be to cut the head of the snake off. That's the quickest way to end this." He wants NATO forces, U.S., to go to Tripoli and to stop bombing -- to start bombing Gadhafi's inner circle. He said I want the inner circle to wake up every day wondering am I going to die today. Should we just go after Gadhafi?

MCCAIN: You know, we have tried those things in the past with other dictators, and it's a little harder than you think it is. Gadhafi's a great survivor. We don't know exactly where he is. We do have to worry about civilian casualties. That could turn the Libyan people against us. I certainly think that we ought to make Gadhafi aware that his very life is in danger, but I think we just have to be a little careful how we do that. I think we can achieve the goal of him being finished off by pursuing the battlefield on the ground as well. But I agree with Lindsay. He should not feel safe.

CROWLEY: And how do you make him not feel safe without going after him? I mean, we see pictures of him running around in open-air cars waving.

MCCAIN: He's done that spur-of-the-moment, without warning. He is also -- no one knows where he is at any given time, unless you see it on television or at the moment.

The point is that we can't count on taking Gadhafi out. What we can count on is a trained, equipped, well supported liberation forces which can either force Gadhafi out or obtain victory and send him to an international criminal court.

My emphasis is on winning the battle on the ground, not taking a chance on taking him out with a lucky air strike.

CROWLEY: And beyond Predator drones, which now we have put into this fight, what do you want the U.S. to do and supply?

MCCAIN: Well, right now NATO is running this conflict by committing. By taking U.S. leadership out of it and U.S. air assets out of it, we've really reduced our ability to prevail on the battlefield. We need the AC-130s and A-10s back in. We need the American air assets back in, in a heavier way.

Look, the British and the French, I thank them, but they are running short of some of these precision weapons. The fact is that it's the United States that's NATO. We ought to recognize that and we ought to continue our leadership role. And that does not mean boots on the ground.

CROWLEY: So you want the U.S. to step back up into a leadership role in NATO instead of this sort of support role that the president envisioned. Do you have any sign from the president that he is willing to do that?

MCCAIN: I don't know. I never wanted us to step down, as you know, because the United States is NATO. That's the reality.

But, Candy, the worst -- one of the very bad results here could be a stalemate.

MCCAIN: A stalemate between both sides, it's divided someplace in the middle of Libya. And then you would open the door to Al Qaida to come in and hijack this very legitimate government and people that are seeking freedom.

They didn't rise up against Gadhafi because of anything Al Qaida did. They rose up because they wanted freedom and democracy. We should do what we can to assist them.

CROWLEY: Senator McCain out of Cairo after his trip to Libya, thank you so much for joining us.

MCCAIN: Thank you.

VIDEO and TEXT CREDIT: State of the Union with Candy Crowley