Sen. John McCain joins Candy Crowley live from Cairo to give his first hand assessment of Gadhafi's future and the fighting on the ground in Libya, where he met with rebel leaders in Benghazi on Friday.
Aired April 24, 2011 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CROWLEY: Joining me now from Cairo, Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona, fresh back from Benghazi, Libya.
Senator, one of the things you called for was for the U.S. to recognize the transitional government that is now headquartered in Benghazi, a rebel-held city. How certain can you be that that transitional government actually is in sync with some of the fighters in Misrata or some of the fighters in the mountains? Is it representative of all of those who are fighting to free Libya from Gadhafi?
MCCAIN: I believe they are, Candy. One of the members, the chairman, was a former justice minister who stood up to Gadhafi, and they have great respect for him. Another, the finance minister, is an economics professor from the University of Washington. We also another fellow that's in the council was in Gadhafi's prison for 31 years. I think they represent -- there's a number of women, civil society activists and others, who are in this council, and I believe that they represent the legitimate aspirations of the Libyan people.
CROWLEY: And are you certain that there is no element of Al Qaida or other terrorist groups that have been able to jump into this void of leadership?
MCCAIN: Candy, I think that it's possible that that could happen. But right now these people are united in their hatred of Gadhafi. They're united, the same reason the people in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria and other countries are, that they want freedom. It wasn't Al Qaida that sparked this uprising. It was the desire for freedom and democracy.
Now, if you have a stalemate, I think it's very possible that Al Qaida could come in and take advantage of a stalemated situation. But right now, it's not Al Qaida that motivated this and it is not Al Qaida that's running it.
CROWLEY: If Moammar Gadhafi is so broadly hated across Libya, why does his army still fight for him and why have we seen so few fractures in his inner circle?
MCCAIN: As you know, we've seen a few fractures, obviously, that I don't have to recount for you. But he is paying mercenaries very large amounts of money. His sons have a few loyal battalions, as you know, that are -- and they have the equipment advantage. The rebels, or the liberation forces, as I like to call them, are badly outgunned in armor, in equipment, in training. I visited the army base outside of Benghazi also on Friday, and they have a long, long way to go as far as training and equipment is concerned. So they're badly outgunned.
I believe with the accurate -- with the appropriate use of air power, which is not the case now -- even though I'm glad the Predator is now in the fight -- that we could -- and adequate training and equipping of the liberation forces -- that they can bring this to a successful conclusion. But it is going to take I think a number of steps, including the recognition of this council, so it would free up money. They need money very badly, and some communications equipment. Some other things that I think would be very decisive.
But I really fear a stalemate. I hope that Gadhafi goes. I hope that there's that kind of overthrow from within, but hope is not a strategy.
CROWLEY: You said earlier this week that the U.S. could help arm the Libyan rebels without direct U.S. involvement. How would that work?
MCCAIN: I think it works the same way that it did in Afghanistan when the Russians were occupying Afghanistan. There are certain other countries that can be of assistance that are already stepping forward, including some of the Gulf states. But it can be achieved, and it isn't a huge amount of equipment.
But there's no doubt that the liberation forces are badly outgunned, and that's a big hindrance, and that's why you're seeing this bloodletting in Misrata.
Could I just mention to you, I saw some wounded that had come in on a ship from Misrata in a hospital in Benghazi yesterday. And I'm telling you, it is very moving to see these young men, full of bullet holes, wounded, some of them dying, and us not doing what we can without risk to Americans on the ground -- and I'm opposed to that -- that we could help them and prevent this kind of bloodletting that's going on.
CROWLEY: One of your colleagues, Senator Lindsey Graham, I spoke with earlier on this show. One of the things he said was, "I think the focus should now be to cut the head of the snake off. That's the quickest way to end this." He wants NATO forces, U.S., to go to Tripoli and to stop bombing -- to start bombing Gadhafi's inner circle. He said I want the inner circle to wake up every day wondering am I going to die today. Should we just go after Gadhafi?
MCCAIN: You know, we have tried those things in the past with other dictators, and it's a little harder than you think it is. Gadhafi's a great survivor. We don't know exactly where he is. We do have to worry about civilian casualties. That could turn the Libyan people against us. I certainly think that we ought to make Gadhafi aware that his very life is in danger, but I think we just have to be a little careful how we do that. I think we can achieve the goal of him being finished off by pursuing the battlefield on the ground as well. But I agree with Lindsay. He should not feel safe.
CROWLEY: And how do you make him not feel safe without going after him? I mean, we see pictures of him running around in open-air cars waving.
MCCAIN: He's done that spur-of-the-moment, without warning. He is also -- no one knows where he is at any given time, unless you see it on television or at the moment.
The point is that we can't count on taking Gadhafi out. What we can count on is a trained, equipped, well supported liberation forces which can either force Gadhafi out or obtain victory and send him to an international criminal court.
My emphasis is on winning the battle on the ground, not taking a chance on taking him out with a lucky air strike.
CROWLEY: And beyond Predator drones, which now we have put into this fight, what do you want the U.S. to do and supply?
MCCAIN: Well, right now NATO is running this conflict by committing. By taking U.S. leadership out of it and U.S. air assets out of it, we've really reduced our ability to prevail on the battlefield. We need the AC-130s and A-10s back in. We need the American air assets back in, in a heavier way.
Look, the British and the French, I thank them, but they are running short of some of these precision weapons. The fact is that it's the United States that's NATO. We ought to recognize that and we ought to continue our leadership role. And that does not mean boots on the ground.
CROWLEY: So you want the U.S. to step back up into a leadership role in NATO instead of this sort of support role that the president envisioned. Do you have any sign from the president that he is willing to do that?
MCCAIN: I don't know. I never wanted us to step down, as you know, because the United States is NATO. That's the reality.
But, Candy, the worst -- one of the very bad results here could be a stalemate.
MCCAIN: A stalemate between both sides, it's divided someplace in the middle of Libya. And then you would open the door to Al Qaida to come in and hijack this very legitimate government and people that are seeking freedom.
They didn't rise up against Gadhafi because of anything Al Qaida did. They rose up because they wanted freedom and democracy. We should do what we can to assist them.
CROWLEY: Senator McCain out of Cairo after his trip to Libya, thank you so much for joining us.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
VIDEO and TEXT CREDIT: State of the Union with Candy Crowley
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